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How 3* infinites and Krosmic infinite-exclusive cards make this game totally PAY2WIN

By Markzs#9189 January 04, 2017, 02:55:16
Hey! In this topic I'll provide an insight view on how hard is to get a 3* infinite and krosmic infinite-exclusive cards and how they are overpowered. 

  • 1) How expensive is to get an infinite card

Our primary option is buying a Golden Pack and receive a guaranteed Infinite Card. Golden Packs cost 300 kamas (5 times more than a bronze pack) and many are rewarded through gameplay or given as gift at seasonal events. That's fine on my opinion, however if you're looking for a specific Infinite card WELL TOO BAD FOR YOU, I mean, you'll have to craft it. Crafting an infinite card requires a whole 2000 Dofus Fragments which is A LOT. Oh, but if you get a repeated infinite card after spending 300 kamas then you're closer to craft the card you want, right? Guess what, not. You'd have to get a repeated infinite card EIGHT TIMES to be able to craft it (250 fragments per infinite repeated). We have many infinite cards in the game already, so if Ecaflip is cursing you then you'd have to spend somewhat 2400 Kamas to craft the card you want (given all infinite cards received are repeated, which won't be and most of them are rather weak before leveling it up).
But sure, let's say you're like me which was lucky enough to get many good infinites cards and just have to level them up.

  • 2) How expensive is to level up a card

30 kamas per 100 experience? At first it's fine, I mean, 60 kamas to increase it to level 2? Sure! Except to reach Three Stars you need to spend 840 Kamas (2800 exp). Oh, I'm glad you said this. Yeah, they get experience when they are played, kill a summons and destroy a dofus. But don't your forget that most of them are weak enough at 1* and 2* that you won't put them in your deck to occupy an infinite card slot, a card slot by itself and losing tempo by playing it just to get 5 exp per fight (this if you don't end losing with it in your hand).
Anyways, let's assume you're doing Ecaflip's Challenge everyday and farming, uh, 4 wins a day? That's on average 60+20 kamas per day. To level an infinite up to 3* you'd spend 10 days. Yeah, that's a fair time, right? Except in this time you won't be opening any packs and not increasing your collection. A deck is not built only with infinites y'know?

  • 3) How expensive is to get that krosmic exclusive card

Oh, boy. Here we go. Let's say you have to now level the infinite card up to 8 or 9 to get that overpowered krosmic card. That's 5000 experience. That's 1500 Kamas. That's 19 days since you get the infinite card. All this only to level up a single infinite card up to max level and not buying booster packs to get more cards for your decks. Even if you say me "but half of this exp I'll get just by playing it" you have to agree that's still pretty insane for a free to play player being able to face people who just spent some good amount of real money and have several 3* infinite and krosmic exclusive cards. "Oh, but they aren't that powerful". That's where I want to get.

  • Now, the cards!

On this part I'll take about the most used infinite and krosmic exclusive cards and show how insanely strong they are. Remember that if you're not able to deal with one of them properly, you lose the game.

Evangelyne 3* is a monster. You know why? Because different of its other versions, it has 3 HP. Almost none class can deal 3 damage in the same turn without spending a huge amount of resources. And if you don't deal with it, SHE WILL ATTACK YOUR DOFUS! Yep, 5 range makes her able to walk and attack the dofus (or the first summons in front of it). And just a 4 drop.
My suggestions would be decreasing its life to 2 or at least her range to 1-4.

I've never seen Lilotte 3* in play until yesterday which 3 different decks (and players) played it in a row. Lilotte 3* has the same stats as Trunknid, except by 4 PM and that effect. You know what this means? This means that if she is not removed, SHE WILL REACH YOUR DOFUS. With 4 PM and only 2 cards played by the opponent (with one of them being a single removal for your blocking summon let's say) she's able to reach your dofus. And hey, look at this 3HP again. Oh, snap, I doubt you get rid of her and control your other rows against an aggro deck at the same time. My suggestions to change it is reducing its PM to 3 or its HP to 2.

Adamai 2* is so overpowered that it has a topic for itself here.

What, 4 damage for 5 AP and a 3/3 body with it? No way! Amalia is incredibly strong. Instead of, lets say, playing an Explosive Arrow and Trunkid (7 AP) and wasting two cards you can simply play Amalia ohmy. Also, it's 4 damage across the row! Four damage is way too much. My suggestion is reducing it to 3 damage.

I actually don't see Marline that overpowered, I'm just mentioning it here because.. I don't know. Increasing its stats to 2/3 instead of keeping as 1/2 as its other versions was a nice balance.

For sure its a pretty strong card (even though everyone happens to counter it with that *** golden boar) and it might be balanced properly with 3 health instead of 4 so some charge minions can deal with it, but I don't know.

Of course this card is just a joke and it doesn't exist because, you know, a card that can discard the entire opponent's card can't be allowed in a card game. Wait, what? Really? Your opponent can play it with an empty hand (or discarded cards as AP) and DUCK YOUR STRATEGY?

(From Evangelyne)

First: costs 3 and deals 2 damage instantly. Second: it's a ranged card and has 3 HP. Third: it's a cheap Brotherhood of the Tofu card and can easily activate synergy effects. Four: requires you to have and level evangelyne card.

Delete this card, please. Since my first day at Krosmaga when I was checking all the cards I saw this as "has potential". Actually, this card is the most efficient card to board control against any deck. Oh, did you put an untargetable minion? Too bad, now it's an 1/2. What? A huge card with leader effect? (Chafer King, Cracklers..). Nope, just an 1/2. "Oohhh, but your minions will be transformed as well". And you really believe this 5 drop will be less valuable for your opponent than for you? 

Now think a little. As a Free To Player, how long will you take to get these cards? How fair is you to duel against someone who has them? Don't forget your opponnent will be using other powerful cards. At the first days I was telling everyone how fun Krosmaga was and how not pay2win it was, but even farming 12 wins everyday I'm very far from the best decks and they basically are the best decks because they have insanely powerful infinite and krosmic exclusive cards which requires not only having the luck of getting the correspondent infinite card from a Golden Pack, but leveling it all the way up.

The changes I suggested don't make them less powerful, because I know infinites 3* are supposed to be really strong and that's okay, really. What is not okay is people spending huge amounts of real money and having this unfair advantage (which defines the concept of Pay2Win). Sure this is Closed Beta and Ankama might need investment while it can to launch it properly, but I don't really think that these or new infinites will be nerfed at all. People will feel frustrated playing against these cards overtime and instead of spending more money or more time to get them as well, they will quit and then Krosmaga will die (which is a shame, because it's a good game after all).

Markzs - 600 total matches played, free to play player, control decks player, large experience at other online card games.

Disclaimer (?): These are my opinions only and I only talked about these cards in particular because they're in the current meta. Surely there are other very powerful infinites and krosmic cards that people haven't leveled yet or fit them in a particular deck, but given the time we can talk about them.
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For me it's okay for them to be a bit op, if, only if, there was no way to boost the exp of an Infinity Card.

What i would like to see is that they reset all exp from Infinity Cards, return the money to the ppl who leveled them with gold, remove the option to boost their exp with gold and boost the exp when you play an Infinity Card / Kill something with it, or, make it so you can only boost the exp once per day, so f2p players can keep up the progress a little bit with p2w people.

This in my opinion would be the perfect world.

Today i faced a Cra with the golden pig + the tornado card, i don't even need to say that it was the most OP combo i've ever seen right?

He cleared my board and started to put more 2 and 3 stars Infinity cards in the table later. I could not compete with him.

For now i'm enjoying to play with my friends and some unranked matches to do the quests and all, but, i don't see myself with any lvl 9 infinity for quite a looonnnggg time. 

I've spent money to buy the starter pack and maybe i'll spend a little more to get more packs, but i don't see myself buying gold to level up Infinity Cards, it's too much expensive for people who lives outside EU.

Also, if for some reason, i start to face a LOT of these op 3 star infinity cards later in  ranked matches, i can see myself losing interest in the game, it'll not encourage me to buy GOLD to level my cards, it'll just frustrates me because to get the same card without selling my body at night, i'll need to play for months before i get ONE of these cards to level 9. 

But overall, the game is awesome, it's already more balanced than hearthstone in my opinion and i'm having a lot of fun, today i did the 20 win streak achiev and bought some silver packs, most of them came with double krosmic, and one even came with 3 krosmic cards!

I just wish pay to level an infinity was not a thing =(

@Edit: Grammar
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Nice thread, actually
I was looking at those cards and thinking same things. It's just that i don't play that much right now and i guess luck - i still never saw that boar for example. But some of those i saw more often and their appearance was quite memorable) Adamai 2* generally is very common (guess that's couse he is 2* only and people rush to get it fast)

For me, it's dissapointing to see that many people running around with high lvl infinites. Leveling them without kamas is EXTREMELY slow. And, as was said, many 1* are weak or useless - leveling them this way will be madness.

I guess, many people abused mechanic, when you could lvl infinites in games with AI. As AI is kinda stupid and weak you could just throw everything on board and win quickly. I am already sad i didn't abused that( + yes, that winstreak bonuses when you could receive 20 kamas per battle for keeping winning in a row. That allowed already strong decks\players to quickly build up their power even more.

Now, as those abuses were closed, leveling is really hard and slow. Something must be made with this sure - nerfing infinites, quickening levelups, making crafting more fair - in my opinion all those things need to be done

P.S. Marline is strong couse it works as removal for big threats, obviously, and adds them to your army. Like mind control. Idk, stealing Chafer King is just reaaally strong move. Or if it steals something like 3\8 without text - it's still amasing. Well, i am using Kerub, Bakara 2*, Evangelyne 2*, Maskemane and Remington mostly, they are like the best infinites i have (and i like range) and that Marline definitely sees those infinites as complete trash laugh
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Well, for sure something is wrong when you look at the ladder: 1300/300, 160/30. 420/100

I know that people can be good, but who have a winrate like that in any game, ffs.

And hearthstone is somewhat balanced macchiony. For sure not having meta decks yet can influenciate krosmaga, but man..... this game for me looks not even close to balanced or rewarding.
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Unrelated note, I used to think DAMN these people sure paid a lot for their decks until one day one of them emoted me. Total games played were literally almost 4000. Some players seriously grind out games like crazy and have been playing since alpha.

On a related note I agree a lot of infinites are pretty ridiculous and unbalanced where the best counter to the card is the card itself
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They might have grinded before they changed consecutive rewards, because after that it's useless to play crazy amounts of games a day and 60 kamas per day from victories are fine
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play MTG then whine....
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I'd like to add Az to the list. Have you guys seen how much +2 attack to everyone makes the difference? It's not just a Standart Bearer as I initially though...
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Did you seriously complain about Lilotte level 3...

Oh no, a 3 mana 3/3, whatever will I do? Oh I don't know, maybe drop a 3 mana 3/4 wabbit in front of it or use +1 AP to drop a 4 mana 4/6 in front of it?

Some infinite cards are rediculous and most likely massively improve your win rate (would love to see the metrics). Adamai 2, Flopin, ect. Others on your list are hardly breaking the meta like for example the Wild Young Golden Boar. Sure, it's an amazing effect if used right, but its also a 5 mana 2/3 the rest of the time. Polter can also get rid of nearly everything for 5 mana, but I hardly see the lynch squads forming for that guy.

I mean if you have played other card games you should know that only playtesting results can show whether a card is broken or not. Simply scrolling through your list or complaining about a card you lost to a few times means little unless you can show that the card is heavily impacting the meta since by definition the meta defines whether something is broken or not.
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He said already that Lilotte doesn't come alone, when you under pressure her speed can win line. That's great if you have enough wabbits and AP to cast them on every dangerous line (and that 4\6, yes), just aggro decks have better starting hands more often.. Idk, i actually never saw her, and lilottes 1 and 2 star forms seem to be really weak.

Wild Young Golden Boar is essentially a removal with 2\3 body, who will put it on empty board 0_o. And his effect is instant and massive, while polter have to survive. Polter can be killed basically with any removal (hello Cra's homing arrow and Sacriers burning blood). Yet, if i remember clearely, polter once transformed my 1\1 archer into a bush after it used it's appearence... interesting ability. Maybe with armor it can do something.. But yes, i saw him only ~3 times through all my games, all times useless
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--wrong reply--
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Some statistics by incredible me biggrin

Played this game for a month a lot, and a bit less for last few weeks...
Right now, i have as 2 star: Evangelyne, Kerub, Bakara, Remington and Nox. All of them are lvl 4 with exeption of Kerubim - lvl 5 (he is the infinite i play the most, and i use his 1* version only, 2* is... inefficient). Zero 3*, and i'm not even close to it..

Eva was boosted to 2* via kamas solely (her 1* is just bad). Bakara was boosted only through one level. And same with Nox. Right now i am focusing on expanding my collection to create interesting decks, so i spend camas on bronze decks solely. At this moment, my most competetive decks are Cra and Xelor. I also got almost all Sadidas cards from packs (that's just luck) buuut... I still feel that this class is weak and unreliable (mainly couse of damn seeds)

So, all other infinites i raised by playing only. More then month passed and the only two i levelled to lvl 4 are Remingtone and Kerubim. Also i have Kabrok somewhere on level 3. + Bakara and +Nox (i received Nox from my second golden pack, was running with that 1\2 quite a bit xD) That's all.

That's slow, very slow. I guess, if kept this way, i will need like 3+ months to level something from those to 3*. And as their 3* form mostly sucks (Eva is exeption) - that doesn't motivates me leveling them at all. Also, i notice that Bakara 2* levels extremely slow from now, as i can't just throw her on a board - she often manages to sit in my hand when enemy surrenders - that's dissapointing.

Also, i don't have Adamai, Amalia, Joris... Marline managed to drop from one of the latest packs and now i am thinking heavily, to boost or to wait for nerfes first xD

Idk, maybe once i will get most of the classic cards levelling infintes won't be that big problem... But when you keep meeting enemy's with 3* Marline or full Brotherhood of the tofu decks right now - that really upsets.

Levelling infinites through games should be better for sure. And, possibly, you should receive exp for infinites in your hand at the end of the match, couse something like that Bakara 2* is at disadvantage with this system compared to, for example, the Dragon Pig
Also, in this case, possibly boosting through kamas should be nerfed... But that might change nothing at all
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Just started this week but have been playing TCG a lot in the past. 
The first thing that I tought when i saw this Infinite Cards was how broken some abilities were at the final levels. Seeing this thread was not a suprise.

Hope they limit the infinite cards a bit so it doesn't bring that p2w aspect as a turnoff to most players.
Something like 6 Stars per deck. So you could do 2x 3stars or 3 x 2stars or anything to fill it.
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You are only allowed 5 infinites per deck.
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Well, you did it. You destroyed the old system. *final fantasy victory screen music*
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